Mark Post on Lab-Grown Meat
Is Lab-Grown Meat the Answer?
Following Urban Times‘ attendance of the Intelligence Squared ‘If Conference‘, we approached the best speakers to get a series of interviews with them. Ellie Petschek interviewed Mark Post who is Professor of vascular Physiology at Maastricht University, Chairman of the Dutch Society of Physiology and acting scientific director of Cardiovascular Research Institute Maastricht (CARIM). Recently Mark began researching ways of creating in vitro meat, and following Ellie’s on article on the matter: Grass Fed or Lab-Grow, How do you like your Meat? she got the opportunity to speak with the brains behind this concept.
Mark Post
What prompted you to initiate this idea?
The idea is actually quite old. William Harvey started with it and Churchill mentions this also in his book (title escapes me for the moment). In the Netherlands the idea of in vitro meat was adopted by Willem van Eelen, who is a 87 year old entrepreneur who is really passionate about this. He assembled a group of scientists from Amsterdam Utrecht and Eindhoven and acquired a grant from the Dutch government.
Can you explain the scientific process of creating meat in a lab? Is it something that could easily be replicated and used worldwide?
We harvest stem cells from skeletal muscle (most species have them), expand them and then let them differentiate into mature muscle cells. Depending on level of maturation and on amount that your are growing, you could see this is as in vitro skeletal muscle and therefore in principle the same as meat. Worldwide there have been and still are quite a few groups who are culturing muscle tissue. Very few however, do this with the intention to grow consumption meat.
What benefits did you see, environmentally and socially, that might result from having lab-grown meat eventually replace meat from livestock?
Cows and pigs are very inefficient in converting vegetable proteins into animal proteins. If we can do better than that in the lab, we will be able to use our resources to produce much more meat (and feed the upcoming markets) or with much less (maximally 80% less) resources produce the same amount. The latter will have obvious environmental impact such as less land, energy and water usage and less emission of methane. With increased efficiency we will be able to prevent the otherwise inevitable rise in meat prices, which would cut large majorities of the world population off from meat consumption or food consumption in general since we are “wasting” other foods on the production of meat. The other potential of lab grown meat is that we might be able to make it healthier (for instance higher in poly-unsaturated fatty acids).
How do you hope to alter people’s view on food grown in petri dishes in a lab? In what ways do you intend to make the concept appealing to the public?
I am not too afraid of the yuck factor, but it will be important to make a product that equals the qualities of livestock meat. If we succeed and the price is right there are many reasons for people to buy lab grown meat (price, clear conscious, Environmental concerns).
Langelaan, Artificial Muscle
What is the extent of the possibilities? Could you have lab-grown prosciutto? Do you intend to further your research and apply it to other kinds of food too?
No intentions to apply it to other kinds of food. The inefficiency of pigs and cows is the biggest reason to start this endeavour. For other foods and even species the margin of improvement is much smaller. The only other reason could be imminent extinction of animals that provide meat or fish or poultry.
What are the core steps in your strategy to get in-vitro meat onto supermarket shelves worldwide?
The first step is get processed meat such as an hamburger or sausage. The production of small pieces required for this process should be scaled up and the production process should be made efficient and cost-effective (major challenge but do-able with sufficient resources). Taste and texture are of course challenges that need to be faced. The next step will be to make large pieces of meat that closely resemble the meat that we currently eat
How extensive is your production facility? Do you have only one location?
Langelaan, Muscle cells in scaffold
We have no production facility, it is still produced in a scientific lab, indeed one location. The lab is quite ordinary, just like any other cell culture lab with laminar flow hoods and incubators, microscopes and the like
Are there any risks to lab-grown meat?
We need to make sure that the cells that we culture are genetically stable so that we are not eating cancer cells for instance. That would be undesirable although not extremely hazardous.
What amount of energy goes into creating meat in the lab in comparison with livestock farming?
Currently still a lot (I have not performed any calculation). A recent life cycle analysis however estimates/calculates that the amount of energy required would be reduced by 60% compared to livestock farming.
Entomophagy (insect-eating) is already common on a global scale with 1,000 insects known to be eaten in 80% of the world’s nations. It is only in Western culture that this is taboo. Do you think that there is a greater chance of western culture eating insects or lab-grown meat?
Lab-grown meat, no question. There is probably a reason why meat consumption will double in the next 40 years.
At the If Conference you said that the first lab-grown hamburger will cost €150,000. Will there be a time when lab-grown meat will become as affordable, or even more affordable, than traditional meat?
I think so primarily based on the efficiency argument. If we can make it more efficiently than a pig or cow, we have gotta be cheaper in the end. It is worth noticing that the current price of meat is way too low.
Potential meat packaging of the future: test tube meat or livestock meat. Which would you choose?
How do you go about getting the same texture and taste as traditional meat? Meat lovers are very particular about the way their meat is cooked. Could you order lab-grown meat ‘rare’?
Yes, it should be rare. Texture and taste are difficult challenges but they are absolutely essential. We assume that taste is a function of the cell biochemistry, but that assumption was never testable up till now. If we create tissue that is the same as live tissue it might taste the same. Clearly we also need other tissue mixed in the meat, for instance fat tissue (we are working on it) and perhaps also fibrous tissue. The chemical basis for meat taste is quite enigmatic though. In the end it may be necessary to revert to current food technologies to create the taste.
Could you describe the impact you hope to have on the world when your in vitro meat is introduced?
Langelaan muscle cells
Transforming the meat producing industry from livestock farming to factory production. This would have major impact on the environment, sustainable meat production that meets the demands of the world population, farming industry etc.
Do you have any other ideas in the making?
Yes, but I prefer to keep to them to myself for the moment…
Do you see the possibility of the world changing to a vegetarian-based diet, where meat-eating becomes obsolete?
No I do not. I wish I would since that is an even better solution to the upcoming problems. However, there is no reason today to eat meat, yet the percentage of vegetarians is pretty small and as far as I can tell is not increasing dramatically.
Finally, do you have any words directly for our Urban Times readership?
Give the technology the benefit of the doubt. It is not the question if we need alternatives to classic livestock meat production, but which alternative will eventually prevail.
Other If Conference speakers interviewed by Urban Times: Michael Birnhack, Lewis Dartnell, Hugh Broughton (and many more in the pipeline!)
I would definitely eat lab-grown meat. There's such amazing potential to it. Assuming it is equally healthy and nutritious, this could be the way to cut out a massive fraction of our Carbon footprint. I don;t see the western world shifting to an insect diet any time soon! :-)
Perhaps the best way to integrate in-vitro pork is in Spam. There's already an avid consumer base. It's that or come up with a road show of In-Vitro Girls. See the history of Spam for inspiration here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(food)
Great stuff Stephanie! The image of the artificial muscle reminded me of a paper I read where researchers were producing artificial heart muscle in a laboratory where they were actually successful in making the muscle engage in contractions. Some fascinating work at the forefront of its establishment. Great interview yet again - extremely interesting!
who knows maybe in a few years time this will be a normality! Lots of interviews lined up with other If Conference speakers so watch this space!
[...] Additionally, if these countries are able to figure out how to appeal to their citizens with sustainable technologies that are cheap enough for them to afford, entire new enterprises will be created and China and [...]
[...] Following Ellie Petschek,’s article Grass Fed or Lab-Grow, How do you like your Meat? she got the opportunity to speak with Mark himself in this interview: Mark Post on Lab-Grown Meat [...]
[...] to enlarge and produce new sources of food. We could synthesize all the food needed (e.g. lab-grown meat). We will move to northern areas of the Earth, and we will cluster in smarter and more organized [...]
[...] to enlarge and produce new sources of food. We could synthesize all the food needed (e.g. lab-grown meat). We will move to northern areas of the Earth, and we will cluster in smarter and more organized [...]